Zeal & Ardor once started as an internet experiment that got out of hand (read more about that yourself), but these days gets great praise from all corners of the metal world. The band knows how to combine the danceable quality of soul music with the extremity of black metal in a unique way. The boundaries of musicality are not only explored, but also crossed. In late August, the group around mastermind Manuel Gagneux will release their new album GREIF. Zware Metalen had the opportunity to interview Manuel. What followed is an extremely pleasant conversation, for which half an hour turned out to be far too short.
Hello, hello. How are you doing?
Good, good. It’s a very hot and lovely day here in Switzerland. I’m melting, but apart from that, everything’s good.
How hot is it today, then?
31 degrees (centigrade).
Wow, 31?
It’s really hot, yeah.
So about hot things. The new album is finished. And there seems to be a small gap in between shows right now. Are you enjoying some time off or are you focusing on other things?
I am working on new songs and other projects. But yeah, it’s still summer. I mean, it’s hard to be pissed off right now. Everything’s kind of pleasant. I mean, except if you look at the news. But still.
Yeah, you can get depressed by the news. So you’re in Basel right now. Let’s start with the less important things in life. In about three weeks, me and my family are going to visit Basel. So I wanted to ask you, because I don’t know anyone else from Basel, what are the two tips you can give? One for a music enthusiast and one just purely for a tourist.
Oh, really? For a music enthusiast, there’s a place called Hafen. And if you’re here on a Monday evening, there’s tons of free concerts. If you’re here with the family, it’s kind of cute because there’s food and drinks. It’s just a very nice place to be. And of course, there’s the museums. There’s tons of museums here. If you’re into art, there’s a big old art museum. There’s also a toy museum that kids could dig and a puppet museum and a cartoon museum. Those are fucking cool for kids, I think.
All right! But I’m not asking you about Basel without reason, because of course, the new album can be linked to the city as well. Can you tell something about the thematical link between the album and the Vogel Gryff?
Well, every year there’s this costumed person that goes through the streets. The city is separated in two halves. And one is historically the poorer half and the other one is the richer. So in the poor half… well it’s 800 years ago. It used to be like that.
Not anymore?
Not anymore. It’s Switzerland. Everyone’s fucking rich, except for me. So in the poor half, this costumed person as the Vogel Gryff kind of turns his backside to the rich side. And as a kid in school, you would go watch that. And I thought that was pretty cool because you’re a little kid in school at like ten years old looking at class war. And I wanted to share that with the world because I think it’s fucking cool. Also, the costume looks amazing. So that’s why we tried to take it for ourselves.
Yeah, I can imagine that makes a big impact when you’re a little kid. It’s a big spectacle. And just to be sure, as far as I can see, the album cover has the actual suit of the Vogel Gryff. So I was wondering, is it a picture or did you see the actual suit?
We called them saying: yeah, we’re this silly metal band and we want to have a picture of it. And we kind of expected them to say, you know what, fuck you. But they were really cool about it. So they actually took it out. And we also got to see the old one, which is super fucking old. And there’s like flags that can’t be unwound because they’ll break. They’re eight hundred years old. So at that point, I’m like, fuck, nobody touch anything! We’re way too stupid for that. So yeah, that was a treat. It’s the actual one.
Wow, really cool. So then perhaps the most important question, did you try it on?
No, because I was too afraid. The thing is, it’s something like thirty kilos heavy. It’s all iron and stuff like that. So they also do this dance where they like take a bow, which is just great for your back, I assume. It’s just one guy. And I thought it would be like this buff guy, but it’s just like this thin person. I don’t know how he can be that strong.
Okay, so perhaps it’s time to switch to the more important things. Obviously, there has been a lot of international praise for Zeal & Ardor in the previous years. How do you deal with the expectations that press or fans or anyone might have regarding the new album?
I mean, the healthiest thing is just to not think of it, but that’s impossible. So in the writing process, I do my best to ignore it as far as I can, just do what I like, because every time that I made music to cater to expectations, it turned out terrible. So I learned that if I make music that I myself like, it’s most likely to be good. So that’s how I do it.
You just mentioned the writing process. Now for the first time you invited the other band members to participate in the recording process. What was the reason for you to shake things up?
I’m still very much a control freak. But I mean, to me, Zeal & Ardor is at his best when we play live. And that’s because of the other people who play really well. So it’s a no-brainer for me to include them in the recording. So I can exploit them even more.
Zeal & Ardor is all about mixing genres and foremost about blurring boundaries as well. It seems only fitting to invite the other members and let new influences enter the music. Did that happen in the studio when you were recording?
Absolutely. There’s just something that happens when I write something and then someone else plays it. It’s going to be different. And I have to come to terms with the fact that I’m not a brilliant bass player. So when an actual bass player does it, there’s like, oh, fuck, you could do that. I forgot. I didn’t know. There’s thousands of those little moments on the album. So it was, I would say, a fucking win. I’m really happy.
Yeah, someone can take it to the next level. How can we hear that on the album?
I mean, there’s tons of them. Just like, I guess, in terms of just how things are punctuated or how things are, how notes are played, it’s difficult to describe. I think that’s also exactly the reason why it’s important, because I can’t do it. It’s not things that I can describe, but I can feel them.
Yeah, it’s a little bit like… I don’t know if this is the right comparison or not. But when you have the classical music from the old masters, nowadays there are so many interpretations of the actual notes that are written. So that can be the same for metal music, I guess.
I did want to compare myself to an old master. That’s correct. Exactly what I wanted to do (laughs).
So we can end the interview right now.
Perfect.
Just kidding, we have to talk about the music as well. I wanted to be very honest with you about my first experience. At first, the music caught me somewhat off guard. But it really forced me to listen carefully and made me think about it. And that was a journey that I’m really thankful for. So is that something you want to achieve as well with the new album?
I mean, we have no control over how people engage with it. So I mean, the fact that you gave it a second chance is probably also like job related because in an other roll maybe you would not have listened to it again. And I think I’m very aware of that. But the thing is, the worst thing that we could have done is make another heavy album. And then we’re like that band forever. So in many ways, we’re kind of elbowing more room for us creatively. And of course, it’s not going to be everyone’s jam. But the thing is, this is music that we love. And it’s going to be weird because we’re weird people.
Don’t get me wrong, I do really like the new music. So the fact that it caught me off guard is a good thing. It really made me think. And that’s, I think, the most cool thing music can do.
Sick. Thank you. Really glad.
You mentioned this yourself, GREIF does quite obviously venture into new directions. But I can hear some influences from the old work as well. The first thing was the glockenspiel introduction on Fend You Off. It reminds me a lot of Sacrilegium 2. Was that a conscious thing?
I just fucking love glockenspiel. Like if you listen to my other project, it’s everywhere because the tone is so close to a sine wave. It’s like the clearest your brain can perceive that it’s just it punches through every mix. And there’s also the connotation with childhood that just kind of puts you back into a different mind space that I really enjoy.
I think it’s an emotional sound, because it reminds you a little bit of your childhood, but it’s also something that can speak to your core emotion as well.
That’s what a glockenspiel can do as well. Yeah, that’s exactly the intention. So sick. Glad that it worked.
Well, it is overall, I would say, a more rocky sound. And it also has to do with who mixed it, who did brilliant work with way better artists than me. And he kind of pushed it into this rocky sphere. I’m really happy he did because it doesn’t really compare to anything else. And of course, it’s more raw and a little more delicate, I think. And it sounds more honest to me. I really like that.
You’ve mentioned this earlier, the overall approach of GREIF is more friendly than that of its predecessor. Are you yourself in a more happy place in life?
Well, I think the record in general is less accusatory. It’s not like: you got to do this! It’s also not… with previous records, I made an effort to never or at least very rarely say “I” or “you”. It’s always us versus them. With this one, it’s more personal. So I think in that regard, it is more friendly. I think that’s where that comes from. Yeah, the stories are more personal and not like a statement of sorts.
In complete contrast to that friendlier sound, stands the ultra-dark and heavy song Clawing out. I guess there was still some anger left, right?
There’s always some anger left. It’s always there. No problem. Don’t worry about that.
Can you tell something about that song? Because I think it’s probably the most heavy song you’ve written so far for Zeal & Ardor.
Yeah. The thing is, we started… the first thing we put out was to my ilk, which is the softest song that we put out ever. And it was fun to me just to watch people go: Oh, fucking sellout. This is going to be terrible. The second one (Clawing out) was going to be the heaviest we put out. And for us, it was: okay, between this and that, everything is fair game on this record. I think that’s a good statement. And we’ll see how that will translate. I’m really, really eager to see how it will work out.
When I hear Clawing out and other songs as well, I think I can hear that your screams and growls have improved. Is this something you have to maintain and practice a lot?
No, but it comes with experience. Now that I’ve been yelling at people for eight years, it would be kind of shitty if it didn’t get better. So I’m happy that it worked out.
I definitely had to learn because on Devil Is Fine I do like a weird whisper thing and just put effects on it. And that is not great. So I definitely had to learn and I think it’s still a process, but it’s a fun process.
How did that work for you? How did you learn or how did you continue to learn?
Well, it was also basically being on tour. And with my first technique, I couldn’t play more than eight shows in a row without losing my voice completely. So it was basically just experience and trying not to fuck up my voice too bad. And it kind of worked.
We already talked a bit about this, but at first glance GREIF has a sound that is a little less harsh. I think the emotional depth makes up for this with ease. Songs like are you the only one now and Solace contain heavy emotions. So are there any personal events incorporated in the album?
Definitely. The thing is, when I write songs, I only realize what they’re about way later. So it’ll take me two years to learn. I’m sure I just need to gain the distance. If we have our next interview on the next album, I’ll be like, yeah, it was because of this and that. But right now, I’m too much in the middle of it to actually realize what it is about. And I don’t mean this as a fake out answer. This is really how it is.
What’s your favourite song on the album?
Kilonova, I think, because it started as a funk song with all these little rhythmic elements. Then I distorted the guitar and it sounded like fucking Tool. That was not intentional. It’s a type of song that I haven’t heard before. And I think that’s exciting for me. I don’t know if it’ll stand the test of time, but right now I have so much fun with it and I enjoy playing it and listening to it.
Do you have a favourite number or lucky number?
Six. Yes.
Oh, I was going to think it’s fourteen because this album and the previous one both have fourteen songs.
Oh, yeah. Well, it’s just because ‘’someone’’ can’t write long songs. No, I don’t think that a song should linger on longer than necessary. If an idea is conveyed, I don’t see a reason to repeat it.
So you’re not going to write a six or seven minute opus?
Maybe if I see like that there’s a sense to it. But to me, mostly it’s just about whether we have said everything that we needed to say? If that is the case, I think we’re good already.
The new album is released by your own label Redacted. What are the plans for the label?
We’re going to buy an airline. Lufthansa. Then I think we’re going to start a series of amusement parks where only adults are allowed. Everybody has to be drunk. It’s not like you can get drunk. No, you have to be drunk when you arrive. You have to drive there drunk and yeah, at the door you get a knife and only Necrophagous is playing over the speakers. And what happens, happens. That’s the Redacted experience. No that’s silly, I think it’s just nice to control everything. This sounds like a fucking control freak. Which I kind of am. But the only reason to have a label nowadays is that they can finance production: be that the recording in studio or the pressing of the LPs and whatever. But now that we have the capital, there’s no need for us to go in depth with basically a bank. Take twenty percent forever.
So after the festival season, you will be touring with Heiling. That’s something completely different than touring with Meshuggah or the upcoming Soulcrusher Festival that you are headlining. I think Zeal & Ardor has proved that the metal world perhaps is more open minded than one might think. Would you agree with that?
Yeah. I mean, metalheads are interesting freaks and we are interesting freaks too. There’s no reason it shouldn’t work. We played with Heilung twice already and we both have this weird ceremonial thing going on.
Well, my favorite food right now in the summer is watermelon and feta salad. It’s so nice and refreshing. I think that would be a good opener. In terms of food, I think I’m not a person who will put melted cheese over a fucking hamburger just for the Instagram clicks. It would be just good food. Maybe in an order you wouldn’t expect, but I don’t think I would be too fancy.
You will keep it to the music then. The album title is fully written in capital letters. Furthermore, the song titles have mixed spelling, some lowercase, some uppercase. Is this something purely to annoy writers and reviewers or is there a thought behind it?
Haha, no to me, the capital ones are like the entrance to chapters. So it’s like different segments of the album. And it’s also for people who want to spend way too much time on deciphering, haha.
And then there’s nothing?
No, no, there’s always something behind it. I just love the idea of if you can dig and there’s more and more. So I love to have little nuggets.
Your other project is called Birdmask. This is also a stupid question, but I was thinking, is it also linked to the Vogel Gryff? Because of the guy wearing a mask of a bird?
That’s a total coincidence, actually. Now it’s coming full circle for some reason, which I love.
Yeah, I think that was my last question. I really want to thank you for a fun interview.
Yeah, thank you for your time, too.
Do you have some final remarks for our Dutch and Belgian readers?
I only know curse words in Dutch. Also, I think fritessaus is overhyped. It’s not that good. It’s sweet mayonnaise and I think we can just admit that. Anyway, thank you. I have to go to my next interview, sadly. This has been very pleasant.
Yeah, thank you. Best of luck with all the interviews.
Thank you, Jesse. And maybe we’ll see you in three weeks in Basel.
Maybe you’re walking around if you don’t have any concerts.
I am known to walk around. Thank you guys very much. Bye bye!
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